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ZBrush 2 Maya - Normal Mapping - This issue becomes rediculous!!

ZBrush Usage Questions
#1

What is the correct workflow of using normal mapping in mental ray ?

I’ve been searching for info on the net and I have to admit that I haven’t found a working workflow for that. That is for mental ray NOT maya (as connecting output to camera’s normal works). Pixologic provided NO SUPPORT for this issue claiming that it has nothing to do with autodesk’s program itself.

Though Mya ais one of the most used programs ever in 3d field and I think it is Pixologic’s OBLIGATION to get a working workflow tutorial as how to get normal mapping CORRECT working under Maya !!!

ANYONE !?!?!

All I did find are theads that each claim to kilerro’s network to work correct
Unfortunately by using killerroo’s shader network (more info @ http://www.headus.com/au/samples/norm-MR/) all I get are errors in output in Maya7.0.1’s mental ray renderer.

For example using by using killerro’s sample file found in the above link all I get by loading the mb file into maya is the output found at the attached pic.jpg file.
Where is the working solution ? Where are normal maps ? Was that shader supposed to be working ? Are there any incompatibilities from maya6.0 to maya7.0.1 ?
All I get in the output are the following errors:

// Info: (Mayatomr.Nodes) : place2dTexture12.vertexUvOne: unsupported type of connection, current plug value used instead

// Info: (Mayatomr.Nodes) : place2dTexture12.vertexUvTwo: unsupported type of connection, current plug value used instead

// Info: (Mayatomr.Nodes) : place2dTexture12.vertexUvThree: unsupported type of connection, current plug value used instead

Has anyone found a working shader that supports normal mapping under mental ray ?

I know there is JS_Normal_mapper, but I feel like avoiding the solution for the fear of future’s unavailability…

I am looking forward to reading anyone’s solution workflow regarding normal mapping issue under mental ray

Best regards,
Tri Stratos

#2

hey tristratos,

I’ve run into the same problem - after some searching on this forum and others I found out about Jan Sandstrom’s (http://www.pixero.com/) JSNormal Mapper. Here’s a direct link:

http://www.pixero.com/files/JS_Normalmapper1.2.2.zip

This seems to work pretty decent with MR, however I have been unable to preview the result using high quality shaded viewport. You have to connect the output of this node into the normal out of the material shader and you should be gold - it’s pretty cool in that you can adjust the height value (intensity) of the normal. Also, I notice I have to check “flip green” in the shader using a standard tangent space normal map. Please someone correct me if this isn’t the right procedure.

I really wish autodesk would fix maya’s tangent bump map render… i’m spoiled using the ease of 3dsmax’s normal bump :slight_smile:

#3

I use XSI and Mental Ray and XSI has the ‘Ultimapper’ module to generate normal maps. Google for it and maybe a render tree reference is there which can help you out.

I don’t understand the ‘workflow’ related question as a normal map is nothing else than a bump map yielding sharper detail as the plain grey scale one. And thus can be used instead the regular bump map in most of the render engines. Regular bump maps can be converted into normal maps as well. Heck, I even use them as displacement maps once in a while when nobody looks closely…

Good luck!
Lemo

PS:It’s early… I see that you are Maya challenged. Here is a link to a post which also includes a shader. Maybe that get’s you going. But in any case, I don;t see why the Pixol’s should care about Maya and the Normal Map… I have XSI and C4D and both are happy and kicking normal maps around. I’d kick Autodesk in your case :cool:

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=26139&page=1&pp=15

#4

I have tried JS_mapper node as well BUT It does NOT work out correct and from what I can figure out, this is NOT JS_Mapper problem. It is ZMAPPER Problem OR at least I can’t figure out, with WHAT zmapper settings, JS_Mapper is compatible with! ANYONE !?!?

IS ZMapper BUG FULL still ??? Does anyone have ANY kind of CLUE ? PIXOLOGIC maybe ??

PIXOLOGIC, WHY havn’t you released a workflow tutorial covering how one can use ZBRushes OWN normal mapping capabilities under maya’s mental ray ?
Is this considred to be a known issue ? Or is it because zmapper is NOT compatible with maya/mentalray at all ?

– TRY FOR YOURSELF –
Just to make it SIMPLE for you, I’ve attached a sample file
(both the mb and two pics that shows the problem)

The bug is as follows:
If you load up the example (exported from PIXOLOGIC’s OWN model sample files), and try to render that in maya’s own viewport, the render seems to be messing up, at each small render region that applies each time. As such, if onw defines a new render region somehwre in the already reendered one, the reender that follows outpuits a different image and in fact at each sub region that applies, it messes it up.

You may see the images in the attached zip to see what I mean or try some reneders on your own.Each time you render the same frame, a new image comes up.

PLEASE NOTE, that the normal map I 've provided here is low quality JPG just in order to be able to upload it in this forum. Unfortunately, the same applies with the full uncompressed high quality image as well, so this is NOT what causes the problem in the renderer!!
Is that a known issue ? Is there something wrong with my setup or the scene I have provided you with ? Is this a bug of a faulty workflow that I am using ?

I am looking forward to receiving your reply.

#5

Just to add a comment from JS_Mapper plugin own author (pixero) directly, check out his response to the following link :
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=398060

He used the exact sample file I have included in this thread, and as he points out, the problem is due to the fact that zmapper produces WRONG output normal map for JS_Normal Mapper.

I have used tangent space for maya’s best render setting.

ANYONE ?
PIXOLOGIC ??

#6

Please understand that a normal map is a normal map, regardless of where it was created. It’s just like painting a texture in Photoshop vs. Deep Paint vs. Body Paint vs. Projection Master. All four options result in a texture map that gets applied in the rendering engine in EXACTLY the same way.

ZBrush doesn’t insert anything into its output saying, “This normal map created by ZBrush.”

There are dozens – if not hundreds – of rendering engines out there, produced by many different companies and being updated constantly. If we tried to stay on top of even the most common rendering engines we would quickly find ourselves spending more time testing workflows, experimenting, and adjusting pipeline guides to provide support for other companies’ software than we provide for our own.

Sometimes the rendering engine itself is simply not very good with normal maps (or displacement maps). I’m not saying that yours falls into that category – I don’t know either way – but it’s something to keep in mind. Different engines do provide different results.

ZMapper provides all of the settings that are necessary to create high quality normal maps. It is, however, the end user’s responsibility to understand what his rendering engine requires and how to apply the maps in that engine. Wherever possible we have enlisted people who are very familiar with particular software packages to provide guides to help, but at the same time those guides can go out of date literally overnight.

ZBC is a very friendly community with a lot of helpful people, some of whom may very well be familiar with the rendering engine that you’re using. They will try to assist you. Your rendering engine also no doubt has its own forums of users, some of whom might be very helpful. And of course if anyone can tell you exactly what normal map specifications are recommended as well as how to apply said maps with good results it will be the developers of the rendering engine itself. Regardless of who you go to for help, however, might I suggest that being rude or hostile is not going to be the best way to lure droves of people into helping you out? :wink:

#7

tristratos -

First, tangent space normal maps are a no-mans land of standards. There is no definitive standard for how a normal map is interpreted. The first and more important thing to understand is that the problem you are experiencing is a result of the industries current implementation of normal maps. A normal map that works in Maya’s vewport will not work in software render nor Mental Ray. A normal map that works in Max 7 does not work in Max 7.1. The map that works in Max 7.1 will not work in Max 8.

This means that what is green in one map may actually need to be red for Maya to read it correctly. ZMapper goes further than most in allowing you to create normal maps for any game engine or 3d program.

Second, I understand your fustration as I am usually the guy going in and trying to figure all this out. However, there is no solid tutorial on the process because when Maya or any other program releases a new version the tutorial would instantly be out dated. That said, it is a strong focus of ours to get some workflows out regarding normal maps.

The configuration you are using, Maya_tangentSpace_bestSetting, is for Maya’s viewport. It will not work in Mental Ray or in Software. This is not a bug. This is the state of the technology today.

The best analogy I can think of is that if you go to Spain with a Chinese phrase book and try to find the nearest bathroom you will likely be in a similar spot of fustration. The problem isn’t that bathrooms can be called something else in a different language. The problem is that you have a Chinese phrase book in Spain. :slight_smile:

The solution is to get the correct phrase book. Its as simple as that. :slight_smile:

However, your specific problem is that there is no phrase book for the country you are visiting, i.e., Rendering Normal Maps in Mental Ray.

You have a couple of options:


  1. Create your own phrase book (not an easy prospect but one that someone is going to have to do no matter what)
  2. Go to the UN to ask for more standardization in normal maps (something I would fully support you doing)
  3. Ask for advice if anyone has a few phrases that you can use (you are doing this in this thread)
  4. Patience. In the end, there are no final answers. There are only good answers and bad answers and alot of questions left to answer. :)

I am aware of the JS thread you mentioned and am looking into it. In the meantime I would recommend you check out the entire documentation for ZMapper on the wiki .

Best,

r

#8

OK, fistly, I can understand what both of you are actually saying.
OK, there is no standard yet set for this kind of technology along patents and to be frank, I don’t think it will ever be… not at least in a near future.

And I guess that is because every system has its own -as said- rgb or tangent spaces set and so on… and that goes on … blah blah blah…

On the OTHER hand -and yes PLEASE ACCEPT my point of view- both packages -and I am sure others I agree with me here- are two of the major packages in our industry, right ?

Yes, ZBrush is one of the best high quality freeform modeleres -and not only- on the planet , and YES this is how it is advertised!!

You have to agree though, that zbrush -although it has quite strong features- is considered to be one of the most valuable TOOLS -along other well established 3d packages- in the artist’s arsenal.
It could be used alone, BUT you REALLY know, this is NOT the case in a proffessional environment !!!
It is used along with other well known packages, one of which IS maya (Maybe the most used in our industry)!!!

OK, with that said, I myself -and I am sure others agree-, that it is OUT of question not to have established a compatible connection between the two.

I am not saying to support other renderers OR plugins whatsoever that are NOT included within the package itself.
I DO however find it quite NECESSARY for PIXOLOGIC to support maya’s renderer AND mental ray and at LEAST, and provide some kind of a decent working -IF ANY- working workflow for their users to use in their environments, don’t you think ?

To my point of view, this is something that PIXOLOGIC need to do, NOT alias(now autodesk)!!
And that is because, zbrush is filling a quite important gap in ALL industry’s established solutions (like maya/max/xsi and so on)

How can an artist feel with a program that is capable of developing exceptional models, but its own inability to support his company’s 3d solution ???

Excuse me to say, I find it quite UNPROFFESSIONAL for a company like PIXOLOGIC to think that this is NOT their own obligation to provide to their users.

Don’t they think that zbrush is another tools in the artist’s grisp in a FLAWLESS compatible (or at least importable in some way) working environments ?

Those were my 2 cents.
I just hope, someone form Pixologic will read my post and try at least to do something about it, instead of ignoring the insdustry’s needs…

#9

Ok guys.I 've spent a lot of time too searching for a way to have normal maps under mental ray but non of them worked perfectly.At last maya 8 and mental ray 3.5 has the solution after all that adventure with All that complex shading networks and special shaders.Just connect the output color (tangent space) of your normal map into the a bump node and change it’s setting from “bump” to “tangent space normal map” and you’re done.Perfect normals, no side effects!!

#10

sigh

#11

Well tristratos, I have for over 25 years in the industry. I have yet to have any pipeline run smoothly, it just isn’t going to happen in the forseeable future. I mean how do all of us that work in the industry manage daily?

I think everyone should post when they have a real problem. Posting when you just haven’t taken the time to learn something properly and making a very rash statement just shows that helping you is not going to be the best approach for your long term benefit.

As Sifis posts, the issue seems solved in the new updates, however don’t count on it.

#12

how can i connect the normal maps color rgb to the bump map node tangent space . when i try to connect output color to bumpValue there is an error:
Error: The attribute ‘bump2d1.bumpValue’ cannot be connected to ‘psdFileTex1.outColor’.

so , how can i render my normal maps in mental ray 3.5 and maya 8.0

:cry:

#13

how can i connect the normal maps color rgb to the bump map node tangent space . when i try to connect output color to bumpValue there is an error:
Error: The attribute ‘bump2d1.bumpValue’ cannot be connected to ‘psdFileTex1.outColor’.

so , how can i render my normal maps in mental ray 3.5 and maya 8.0

when i connect output color direct to lamberts normal camera it gives bad results

#14

well i just got some gr8 results with Maya 8.0 and Mental Ray 3.5. well there isnt much to do actually. i just assigned a Blin to the model and in the attribute editor for the blinn i clicked on the little swatch in front of the bump attribute. and selected the tangent spcae normal from the drop down list, right under the bump value let me be a lil obvious

  1. Creat a blinn, assign to the model.

  2. Go to the attribue editor for the blinn.

  3. select the texture swatch for the bump map.

  4. change the bump type to tangent space normal from the drop down list.

  5. Insert your normal map and your done!!

#15

Ok it seems to work but there is still the question what settings to use when creating the normalmap in zmapper.

I’ve been struggling with this issue for quite some time now and tried all the solutions including kileroo, js_mapper etc. This one seems to be even easier but I still dont know how to get it correctly exported from zbrush.

The thing is that the normal map often doesnt match in some places where seams happen to be and it looks like the light drops from different angle in one half and different in the other half of the geometry.

#16

Hi,

Yes, obviously it should be as simple as that, but if you look at the connection made, you will see that only ONE channel is connected (by default alpha channel - if missing alpha is luminance in the file - will output luminace as alpha value) thus you loose all the RGB(vector of the normal at the point shaded) information. unfortunately the maya bump node seem to work only with a grey scale value map…
maybe one thing to ( little )workaround this would be to connect by hand the blue value from the file to the bump node…

any idea somebody?

JM

#17

I just found the solution.

Get Mudbox 2009 and work like you should!!
It gets the job done easy and efficiently!!

#18

What kind of presets do you have in Mud 2009 :
Maya viewpot renderer
Maya software, Mental Ray ?
Which version of Max ?
Is is working for Max native renderer or Mentaal ray ?