I saw video tutorial of Jason Welsh, where he created cloth for his character in ZBRUSH. For pants he used SubTool/Extract option of masked part and for shirt and west he used Topology features. Now, the thing I was wondering as somebody new to ZBRUSH is WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO CLOTH CREATION WAYS ? Is it the same or each way have some particular advantage ?
Thanks
Hey again, modelator.
I am not quite sure which tutorial you are referring to, could you post a link?
I know that there are very nice and fast ways of making gorgeous cloth in max - but I never heard about cloth in ZBrush.
Hi Megamorph. I am glad to hear that even I can post something valuble and usefull to you:D Here is the link
There (on this link) are a lot of great Jasons tutorials about ZBRUSH. The cloth tutorial is LESON 8 (subtools/modeling/mesh combine). There you can see these 2 ways to create great cloth items in ZBRUSH 3.
Here is one more addres, because the curent link doesn’t work sometimes. You have to type ZBRUSH LESSON 8 and on 5 page you will find same that dowloadable video.
Enjoy
Thanks, Modelator. This is a good tutorial to see indeed.
And don’t regard me as some sort of expert, man, I am just as much of a self-learned junky as you are, just at a little later stage. Judging by your eagerness to learn all these nice things, you’ll be at my level - nay, better than me pretty soon.
The difference is such: when using the sub-tool method, you are basically copying a portion of your model and tweaking it (in this case, making the copy of legs, or the new pants, a bit bigger then the legs so that they fit.) The big problem with this is that you can only tweak it so much, you don’t have any control over your topology (over the density of your polygons, which ultimately constitutes how much detail you can add to the model in any specific place).
When using the topology tools, instead of just cloning and tweaking the model, you come up with a surface that is the same general shape but that has a different topological structure - that is, you can control specifically which areas are more or less dense and will have more or less detail later on. The first method (sub-tools) may be easier to understand or faster to use, but the latter (topology) will give you much better results.
Well…yeah, I am really HUNGRY of KNOWLEDGE:D. I am trying to learn new things every day since I have so much ideas and so low level of expirience in 3D. You saw the difference in these 2 ways of cloth creation imediatelly and that’s the experience I’m talking about.
Yes, the Masking/Extracting method is easier and Topology method often kicks me out of ZBRUSH or can’t load Topologicaly maded stuff out of ZTools. Maybe just have to reinstall my Windows, I don’t know.
Well I was thinking and , you said that I can’t control my Extract maded cloth when it comes do density of polys, but CAN I just use pants (from SubTool palette) and add more Subdivision levels if I want more detailed cloth item ? Then they will have more polygones.
However, I am searching for (as you already know:)) best way to create cloth items that will be later used in other app (Poser7) to be posed or animated on my character of course. So I guess that I should ask people on the forum what features of ZBRUSH are (when it comes to cloth making) best in the case I want not just to render still image but move, rotate and USE my character with cloth on him as “actor” in other animation apps.
That’s why I am interested in which way I should use and why.
It can seem like you still can, but not really. Consider this hypothetic example:
You make your pants via the sub-tool method.
You see that there is not enough polygons where you need more detail (i.e. the belt area.)
You hit the divide button.
Sure, you get more polys in the belt area. In fact, you get 4 times the number of polys you had before you hit the buton. BUT…
When you divide it here, you also divide it in other places where you don’t need, and might even not want to have more polygons (i.e. in the area between the pelvis and the knee, where there is no detail desired.)
Then, you try to put those details in the belt area. You face these problems:
a) You still get uneven details - the details at, say, your pockets (which were in a more dense place in the first place) look much more refined than you belt buckle on the same subdivision.
b) You get what I call “polygon pull” problems. These arise when trying to use the smooth tool on low-density areas. The low-density areas will tend to pull away some things from the nice details around them that you don’t want tweaked.
c) Hardware problems - yes, Zbrush can handle gazillions of polys. But it cannot handle gazillions of polys on any system - and there is a limit to which any system, including yours or mine, can get. If you are subdividing, you are using more and more resourses. So, why subdivide if you can achieve the same or better result (in detail quality) without subdividing but using the Topology tools instead?
These are all valid considerations when making such stuff as clothes, armor, or a multitude of other objects that you’d like you model to have.
You also asked about how to make cloth in poser…
There is a tutorial others seem to be recommending:
http://www.poserfashion.net/judy’s_period_dress.htm
It make sense. Sounds logic that what you said but I am still newbie so I can’t see some things like that. And beside that, I need more knowledge in hte field of TOPOLOGY so that I can easy manipulate with density of my mesh. Yes I know that my system have problems with high subd levels and I know that when I subd wholle pants I have a lot of non necessarily subdivided areas and “useless” polygons.
Thanks for Poser tutorial.
And one more thing, what do you think about DIVIDE HD option unde GEOMETRY HD ? In tutorial I saw guy said that when we use Preferences/Mem/MaxPolyPerMesh and enter (for example) velue of 2, THEN press DIVIDE HD and hover with mouse across the area we need more polys (that area shoud be zoomed in canvas) and press A button and we got 2 million polys in that area so we can sculpt fine details and when we press A again mesh comes to current polycount but sculpted area keep the details on the same quality level. So, opinion ?
You’re absolutely right to point this out now. The HD tool is a neat way to edit a tool that is VERY high in polycount. As you’ve said, when you edit it - you see a lower polycount object, but when you choose to preview the HD, you see it in high definition (for one shot only, though.) This provides nice means to smooth down your model if it’s already at say, 4-6 million polys, and your system can’t handle rotating around the next potential subdivision (which would be, respectively, 16 to 24 million polys - 4 times the number.) So, you can use the HD division instead, and work in on the 4-6 million tool but preview the denser one only when you wanna take a look at the result of any particular series of actions you make. Good call.
Buy the way, I tried your tutorial about normal/dispacement mapping. I follow every step as you describe using just 3D sphere (of course I modeled it a bit and put some details) and I think that is very clear tutorial.
As you know I need that maps to import them into Poser (because I can’t import zillion poly mesh:lol:). I saw 3 export formats PSD, TIF and BMP. I am really not familiar with what format I need to use so that I can open them in Poser. Does you ?
I would guess that .bmp format should be fine, since .bmp is like the default windows bitmap format (and I’m guessing poser was originally coded for windows.) I’m no expert in poser, though, as you know. .bmp generally works everywhere (Maya, Max, XSI, modo, Lightwave - you name it). It should work. If you want to edit your, say, color texture (in the future) in Photoshop - you can export to PSD right away, since that is Photoshop’s native format. Photoshop also reads .bmp files, by the way. Even if Poser doesn’t understand .bmp (which I highly doubt - it should), you can usually convert .bmp with any 2D editor (Photoshop, MS Paint, Deep Paint freeware, Painter, - whatever you use) to whatever you might require.
BMP – most universal
PSD – most convenient if you plan to edit in Photoshop
TIFF – some MacOS-only apps use TIFF, also convenient if you plan to edit in Painter
OK, NOW…let’s say that I modeled HEAD with my ZBrush mesh and I have 4 levels of Subdivide. I have shape, details…everything I want… but polycount is about 800.000 so I can’t import such a big file into Poser and want to use your tutorial and create map so that I can do both, import my HEAD into Poser AND see my details on the HEAD. I have my mesh and after your tutorial I have BMP file saved. How then to use that into Poser. Poser have option to IMPORT files in formats OBJ, LIGHTWAVE, DXF, 3D STUDIO, AVI, BVH motion, Background Picture, Sound…etc. But how to apply my MAP to imported low poly ZBrush mesh ?
Thanks on all this help it means a lot to me.
Cheers
No problem.
I hope that this comes to you in time. I also hope that the example you’ve stated is hypothetical - you haven’t already modeled the head, have you?
Because if you have, and detailed it through to 4 subdivs, you will run into some problems with your normal map… (remember - I’ve said that the UVs also have to be set up before you begin.)
If you don’t know much about UVs, here is a tutorial that has sufficient stuff about UVs (it is, in fact, setting up UVs for a head) IN POSER.
http://www.infinitee-designs.com/Portrait_Tutorial.htm
NOTE: I said in poser, which means that you have to either
A) Create a head in ZBrush, then export to poser (at the lowest subdiv, do NOT detail it yet), set up UVs there, export it back to ZBrush, detail it, make the displacement map, export to poser AGAIN (phew…), apply the displacement map in poser, and BAM! - You’re finally done. All this for a good model. But, potentially, a very, VERY good and detailed model, which you can then animate.
B) Instead of beginning to work right there in ZBrush, you can start working in Poser, and UV it right there, so you don’t have to export/import twice - may save you some time if you know how to model in poser well. Then, after you get your UVs in the right place, go through the rest of the process as it is described in A)
NOW, finally, about the formats… Sorry about the wordiness… Use .obj format as intermediate stage, between ZBrush and any other software (including Poser.) You see, .obj is a very universal format, kind of like .bmp, but only for vector 3D, not raster 2D. Many things understand it. This is why .obj is the only format that you can export from ZBrush (virtually no other software but ZBrush will understand the default .ZTL format - the ZBrush tools.) So, when you want to put you poser model into ZBrush, you export it to .obj, then use ZBrush Import button (Tool Pallete, more specific options in the Tool Pallete -> Import Rollout.) to get it into ZBrush. You can then save it as a tool if you’re not finished with it or as a backup (.obj won’t preserve your subdivision history and other ZBrush-specific data.) When you want to get something from ZBrush to Poser, use the reverse process - export to .obj from ZBrush (using the export button or the Tools Pallete -> Export Rollout options.); then import it into Poser.
This is a long process. But this is what most of the modelers (people who use ZBrush combined with another app) go through. This is how they made the models for gears of war (see www.unrealtechnology.com) and Unreal Tournament 3 (www.unrealtournament3.com), as well as many other cool games and animations.
Yes it was just example. I am modeling head just because of practice in mapping. I could model anything for now just to try.
Ok, I know nothing about UVs (although I have UV Mapper instaled on my system) so I’ll follow this tutorial you posed and see what I can do.
It’s not a problem. I’ll IMPORT/EXPORT it as many times as I need just to goal my results. Poser is for animation/posing/rendering/adding materials/rigging… etc but I can’t really model anything inside of Poser. Eventually do some minor tweaks. So I need to do 100 percent of modeling/detailing job in ZBRUSH and than go to Poser (of course after set UVs as you said).
Thanks a lot.