thanks for the links Sebcesoir, i hadn’t seen some of the great work in those threads…
thanks for the topic dzenid, i hadnt realized how far from my illustration background and approach id gotten.
I do think though that the lack of “art” (containing content and form) is directly related to the small percentage of ppl using zbrush as a 2d medium.
Well it is certainly an interesting debate you have put forth… not really. You have managed to stir up the age old debate of the definition of art. Despite your notions otherwise that is exactly where this discussion will lead. There are already signs in your post and the posts of others leading to this inevitable no-win scenario. I do not make a living at producing fine art. In fact few people on this forum do that. I make a moderate side income doing illustration for marketing and package design. But in the end I am a creative person. So yes, in that respect, I consider myself an artist. You had best tread carefully before you come into this forum and begin insulting its members. Your statements are inflammatory and by their very nature insulting. ZBrush Central is a forum for the ZBrush software created by Pixologic. This forum is maintained and moderated by Pixologic. It was put forth in an effort to provide ZB users an avenue to communicate with, teach, and share with one another their experiences using this software. It is not an art forum. It is not governed by the elitism that rules those types of forums. There is no panel sitting by waiting to pass judgement on images that are posted. There is no waiting list to get in. “Art” is a happy byproduct of this forum. And that is where we begin to delve into the purely subjective. That is where you are taking us with this debate. Content? It is all good if someone somewhere walks away with a better understanding of this software. So before you go wagging off at the mouth about the inadequacies of “content” at ZBC you should perhaps establish yourself as an authority on the subject and mayhap, I dare say, build your community relationship here at ZBC. You are not off to a good start.
Oliviero Toscani
Stanley Kubrick
Yasujiro Ozu
Andy Warhol
But please use the modern instruments of the 21 Century, as the links, that’s permit to win some time research 
Have fun Zbrushing! 
Pilou
A good teacher is not a warranty!
Most pupils of Rembrandt never got famous. 
…fist pupil one? G Dou 1613 1675
Pilou
Ps
Bio said
Dou’s work was very popular and continued to be influential until the mid-19th century when appreciation for precision in painting declined under the influence of impressionism.
:lol:
you know content and form and viceversa.
Andreseloy
please…
Have to agree with Mentat7 here.
The content for the main forum is…images, models, works in progress.
If you want works of art go to an art gallery.
This forum is more like an art classroom. Everyone sits around painting, sculpting…Learning the program(medium)…whatever since this is a virtual classroom one must post a pic of a work in progress in order for the other classmates to critic so that one may make it better or learn a new technique that they can use to find their own voice for their creation. Not everyone in every art class is a Michelango or Rembrandt. What is posted up in class is just that…their work in progress…ie utilizing some new skill which will hopefully one day be utilized in creating what you would call art.
If there was a forum for Finished Zbrush Works of Art then perhaps your arguments would hold up.
I don’t think the guy creating game content and learning how this program works could or should be held in such high standards as yours.
Am glad they moved this discussion as it belongs here and not in the Main forum.
A good debate could be had but as Mentat7 has already mentioned, It’s a debate with no winners and has been done before here. And usually the starters of said debates have no works of their own to offer up as “perfect” examples…because ideals are easy to write about but in action not so easy.
OMG Bas!!! Most of us are pupils of Pixolator here…now I am in tears…Ofer will be the only famous one… 
Ofer, I want my cut…lol…
could be worse though…better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all…something like that…
Another thing I thought of this morning was about photography…It is my understanding that on a shoot, you might take a hundred pics of the same subject, but out of all of those pics, only one or just a few may be useable…and I have always seemed to have that approach in my own art trials. Out of the thousand or so z images I have created in the last 4 or 5 years, maybe a handful or so actually tickle my fancy. There are the ZGods around here that have done somewhat the same I think. We all share all our doodles, feeling out what Joe public likes to see or maybe just what our peers want to see.
I will tell you something that I wish I could prove. This may have fact behind it or maybe all fantasy, but I tell you I think this community on ZBC is watched by lurkers that are “in the business” (and that is not me saying that everyone in the business does this, so don’t throw daggers at me) and take from this forum in one form or fashion and use what they see created by others, whether it be alphas and textures or just concepts and take things a bit further in their own projects. I have seen pics, creatures and stuff created on this forum and a bit later see something so so so so similiar later on maybe something like the scifi movie of the month on the scifi channel. Alot of cheesy B horror films with substandard graphics with creatures I could have sworn I have seen on the forum before… Is this paranoia? Maybe…but then again I don’t believe in coincidences…
Bas, you brought up something good earlier that I would love to hear about on a seperate thread from all the freelancers…How to be a freelancer in the digital world?
Also, something for some motivated individual, whether they are a Gamemaker or just a salesman…put yourself together a pool of artists from the forum and market them…a few contracts sent to the artists, a couple of paypal accounts and some salesmanship and you would have one helluva business if you can market the ideas and russle up some work. Win win situation…
For the traditional artists…teach us the errors in our artistic ways…content and form…Just dont talk down to your audience and go all artsy fartsy foo foo foo on us and all could benefit…
Lurkers, yall need to come out of the shadows…1000’s of you out there…come into the light, Carol Anne and input your ideas and comments…
I don’t mind saying, I would love to make some money creating…and I am not a greedy man by any means…and I am sure there are others around that are the same way.
so I got off topic a bit…sorry…but in the end I think it’s all relevent.
Ron
Ron
I edited my post, my typing hands went too quick. But reading the start of this thread made me angry. In my life I learned to respect everything around me. Every one who is an artist now, made a start once. It’s a shame to pollute your own nest. And brag about teachers to find yourself important… This is the last about this unwanted bistro-talk!
About the dreams of many, to work as an illustrator. Wake up. It’s hard working. Maybe I can tell and show some more.
Keep creating, keep wondering!
ok… well… i see a lot of hard feelings here which is a main problem of communication… critic is a help, the best help that you can expect from somebody… i think it’s the critic that miss on this forum… and i just wanted to discuss a question in between people that i feel like my collegs, not like somebody who thinks he is something more… that is why i have wrote, to help myself and others to get better…
… i never intended to discuss meaning of art, today anyway it is impossible, when we see all what is called art…
… maybe it will be best to tell you how i got here on the first place…
… so i"m a guy who over ten years of work, did most of stuff to earn my life, and in east Europe from which i come, it means to survive… i studied graphic design and film&video, but to survive i needed to learn also how to make web sites, multimedia CDS, 3D modeling, animating, editing, motion design, shooting, lighting, directing and so on… just to survive i did some horrible things and some good stuff, i have to admit more horrible stuff (at least for me, which is not most horrible stuff for employer) and all those 10 years doing something to please others i was trying to do my personal stuff, short films, art videos when i got the time… so as you can see i’m like the most people here, facing same problems…
… i never gave up from my personal projects, i never gave up from learning, reading, discussing, kind of student in between work to survive…
… so this time i decided to make one of the short stories that i have written… very simple story that will set up my style of doing things in a narrative way and in a way of form, atmosphere, characters, music. a film that will define the way how I want to say things … so of course i made a research on the net in a search for inspiration, clues, ways to do, tutorials everything that could help… and i came to Zbrush forum… at the first moment i was so impressed, i sad WOW this forum, this people they KICK ass… and i started visiting looking for basically something that will help me define my characters and the way how i can model them of course… so i saw so much talent, so much… but finally after two months of looking, searching for somebody to post a note, to ask if he is interested of making characters for my story… I was disappointed… there was great technic, but i didn’t search for a technical guy who will execute my ideas, i searched for an creative guy who will make this film even better that i could imagined… but work that i have seen, excluding exercises, technical problems, was so usual: zombies, obvious monsters, hyper realistic portraits, dioons, not original sf scenes, worlds, aliens even abstract work was not impressive… there was no well thought personal styled work, i’m sorry saying this but it’s what i think… there was no try to, for example, to build original characters, different, not zombies, monsters, orcs, sf character, but something individual, personal…
so in a way you can see me like a employer who search people to work with… but the thing is i’m not employer… i have searched friend… so i decided to write what i think… not to discuss art, but to tell what i think is a problem from a side of employer and friend in the same time… i’m sorry if i have hurt some feeling it was not my attention… sorry if i have sounded too full of myself, i was never…
… in today world of CG there is so much software that will permitted you do more and more incredible stuff more easy, and therefore so much people who could learn all that suff… but believe me on the end what is really important and what the companies and employers will search is creativity, uniqueness, new interpretations of old things, originality, personality and all this things are what i was pointing at… zbrush is a tool for artist they say, but not a lot of people understand that, that is why i took the right to write and say all this thing here and not on some other forum of 3D software like Maya, 3dSmax, lightwave…
… maybe it was a wrong approach that i have took… but it is because in my school where i have made the best progress a critic was a best help… we would present our ideas/projects to all students, no matter which department (graphic design, illustration, industrial design, music, film&video) and then the students would be throwing critics, questions, always why this why that, and to defend good your project you needed to be really sure of reasons, motivation and what you are trying to say…
… hope all this words that we have written where of any help to all of us…
… and i hope that i did not spoiled my community relationship here at ZBC…
greetings, dzenid
Forgive me if I got the gist of your message wrong
but you are saying no one here seems to be able to create their own vision good enuf for you in order to create your vision of how things should be?
You are looking for someone to create your vision, but do not say so…do you think all the fine artists that come here are going to post up their best works here? Or the works they have created for others which would probably have copyriight issues?
Instead if you saw someone whose style you like, why did you not contact them directly so as to see their…portfolio or whatever?
why instead insult the masses who are working hard to master a hard to master program then say…oh well I can’t create my own vision but instead am looking for someone else to create it for me? I don’t get it.
But I am thick headed and probably missed something here.
So forgive me if I got it wrong.
I am now dubious of the validity of the thread starter now.
All this past talent and studies mentioned and not one pixel to show for it to help validate the case.
We produce what we like around here. I love horror and do a ton of zombie heads. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into the realm of what you are after.
I knew I shouldn’t have been drawn into this conversation, even though the original conversation seemed promising. It’s a shame you don’t like what you see on the forum.
Have a nice day.
Ron
You are looking for someone to create your vision, but do not say so…
… i’m looking somebody who could provide some interesting and original characters, not make my vision… in fact i allready sad that… but more from that i search somebody who has a style that is close to me… and real problem is that i could not define the style at all, personal style (not speking here about technical style) in between all those skulls, zombies, aliens, monsters, horror and SF sceens… and by the way i will post my short story in a another thread so the people interested in that could eventualy have some proposition…
do you think all the fine artists that come here are going to post up their best works here? Or the works they have created for others which would probably have copyriight issues?
… i could just than hardly imagine what’s their best work look like than in fact??? :eek:
Instead if you saw someone whose style you like, why did you not contact them directly so as to see their…portfolio or whatever?
… becuse i did not see style (except from some “big/fameus” users)… at least not their own… maybe zbrush style… GENERALY SPEAKING (because it’s not possible see all those work) and most of the people have thair portfolio on their URLs… which i have seen…
why instead insult the masses who are working hard to master a hard to master program then say…
… wow, is the critic INSULTING… what is wrong with you, is it so hard to except the critic?.. i set up a discussion and my oppinion, some people thought the content it’s not part of a problem with what they are dealing with when for example they start building a charachter… i’m telling opposite… and yes now you will tel me that it is insulting to say that i did no find style, but it is your oppinion, so we could discuss that… and from our discussion some people will think maybe about their style for the first time… so it is good no?
… oh well I can’t create my own vision but instead am looking for someone else to create it for me?
… by the way isn’t it the normal process? … and by the way i can create my vision, but with somebody else, we could create better vision …
…
Quote Ron Harris
“Also, something for some motivated individual, whether they are a Gamemaker or just a salesman…put yourself together a pool of artists from the forum and market them…a few contracts sent to the artists, a couple of paypal accounts and some salesmanship and you would have one helluva business if you can market the ideas and russle up some work. Win win situation…”
Ron 
Title of First image book Creatures Imagation Vol1
Sir or madam…
you bore me…
your answer alone should answer your own question…
Quote:
do you think all the fine artists that come here are going to post up their best works here? Or the works they have created for others which would probably have copyriight issues?
… i could just than hardly imagine what’s their best work look like than in fact??? :eek:
then why are you here…still seeking what you cannot create?
Also…not one person here…would turn away a creative criticism…whether they like it or not…yet you have not give one…on generalisms…that is not a critic…it is insulting.
… oh well I can’t create my own vision but instead am looking for someone else to create it for me?
… by the way isn’t it the normal process? … and by the way i can create my vision, but with somebody else, we could create better vision …
…
no it’s not. I don’t look for someone else to create my vision for me…i seek to find my own.
if you can create it…do so…then and only then if you feel someone can help you make it better…seek him out…but perhaps you fear the critic you feel you are? If cannot even satisfy yourself in your own vision…how do you expect another to do so for you?
… all what i’m sayin is not is in my GENERAL oppinion…
great character studies :eek: from sunit:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=24627
off course there is some exelent work here… i would not wrote all this if there is not… i’m just tring to make some people think more before they start to model, to think more of what and why they are modeling, to think about creating their own style even trough exercise…
RON: you have right about allmost everything you say… especially about freelancing and what should be done in that matter… by the way i will u/l some of my shorts here, just don’t know the limitations of the forum in a matter of size?
“Also, something for some motivated individual, whether they are a Gamemaker or just a salesman…put yourself together a pool of artists from the forum and market them…a few contracts sent to the artists, a couple of paypal accounts and some salesmanship and you would have one helluva business if you can market the ideas and russle up some work. Win win situation…”
… this is what i’m dreamin’ of…
aminuts: sorry for boring you… generalisms is mostly used in criticism… and creativ criticism is also if i critic what is behind actuall work.
… i could just than hardly imagine what’s their best work look like than in fact???
i wanted to say how great or magnificent work should i see there, because it’s allready great enough… do not think i don’t like stuff here, in opposite i like it very much i’m just saying what in my oppinion it miss most of the time…
if you can create it…do so…then and only then if you feel someone can help you make it better…seek him out…
… it is exacly what i’m trying.
but perhaps you fear the critic you feel you are? If cannot even satisfy yourself in your own vision…how do you expect another to do so for you?
i do not seek the vision i have one… it is not a metter of satisfying my vision… it’s a metter of doing something without thinking, that is what i don’t like… afraid of critic i’m not just because i still write to you and to a lot of people here who are critisizing what i say…
"i do not seek the vision i have one… it is not a metter of satisfying my vision… it’s a metter of doing something without thinking, that is what i don’t like… afraid of critic i’m not just because i still write to you and to a lot of people here who are critisizing what i say…
I believe your point…or the point you were trying to make was…people need to THINK before creating…but here you tell me once again that you have a vision…yet cannot create it…but “it’s a matter of doing something without thinking, that I don’t like” well then …do some thinking and create something to show us all your points.
I wasn’t talking about taking criticism here…I was talking about your own inner critic that keeps you from practicing what you preach.
Any one can walk backwards but only a believer stands amongst his enemy and holds his ground no matter what.
yet cannot create it…
never sad this… i can and i will… but it’s just the thing… i THINK before i make…
by the way we started to catch eachother’s words, and that is not good…
don’t think that we are far a way from eachother’s thinking… it’s a stubberness now…
i simply say that is important (even for the exercise) to think about what you are going to make… by the way it’s your work and time… i see nothing wrong here…
we went far a way from the initial dicussion and maybe is better if we close this thread…
there were great writings here, from all of you, and i have lerned a lot… it was my first posting ever on an forum, so excuse me if i was acting like we talk eyes to eyes, hard to realise that on the end we are in fact strangers to eachother, and that the field that i have penetrated is strictly personal and individual… so maybe i have made some mistakes of telling, like i know each of you… but still i hope that was not all bull**** and that you did ask yourself some questions and somehow pull out some new knowlage…
you are all great people there, doing some great stuff, and you could do even better…
see you in the next thread, more practical, i guess.
but finally after two months of looking, searching for somebody to post a note, to ask if he is interested of making characters for my story… I was disappointed…
Do you think 2 months is suffisant to find your dream ?
I believe not
I am surfing from more ten years and I have seen just a little part of the “art” possible :rolleyes:
Some are hidden in secret links and now in Blogs !
So surf again a little, you surely find the “kindred spirit”!
Have happy surfing!
Pilou
Ps And if you don’t find, make yourself your project, that is the best thing to do I think!
Pss You can also post your “Storyline Screen Play”, maybe someone can you talk some advices
Art is something personal. Neurologically aRT is pattern recognition, which in conjunction with previous experiences results in an more or less emotional reaction. Thus Art is experienced by everybody differently. Basic ‘wiring’ of the human brain however makes us succeptible to the same ‘basic’ patterns. I simply refuse to discuss Art. As it is futile. Comparable to the discussion about religion or politics. There are more facets to discuss than colors in the spectrum of light. Maybe it’s more like the modern string theory of quantum physics with 11 Dimensions… Discussing a certain piece of art however is always fun as it is an excahge about the way this particular ‘pattern’ affects the audience and what can be said about the execution. But Art itself… For me it is the term which combines ‘invention/imagination and execution’.
There is one factor however which is making or breaking the experience. And that is EXECUTION. Every pattern, once it is executed with skill will have an audience. Every presentation, however flawed, will destroy the illusion we try contruct so carefully. And if the senses are not deceived carefully, the mind turns away.
As a skulptor you try to train your muscle memory, in this virtual world we train our eye, hand, and virtual tool coordination. After that, and only after that is mastered, talent can rise above the purely technical skill and tell it’s story.
Execution is what people here are working on. Trying to hone their execution skills. A great story is not told by a blabering luntatic. One has to learn the language first to express himself. Here we all try to speak ZBrush. A rather odd dialect I’d say ;-).
You have to accept that you do NOT have to define everything. Greatness comes with the abilty to be carried by the flow of imagination. After you learned the tool of the trade.
Listen deep into yourself and see the patterns emerge. If not… go and become a mechanic ;-).
LN
PS: There is a nice proverb in German which goes like this “Kunst kommt von koennen”. Which means translated ‘Art comes from ability’. Nothing more true IMHO. Ability to invent patterns and the ability to execute the creation of the patterns correctly. Every other discussion is derived from those two very basic statements.