ZBrushCentral

Advice, will Zbrush work for me?

Thanks for your honest insight. I suspect you’re probably right. On both accounts. For what I’m doing, Maya is certainly out of the question expense/budget wise. Hiring a 3D artist would probably be a good way to go. I’m going to see how far Zbrush will get me…and a lot of this is for my own personal growth :wink: If I can just create more realistic looking knobs for the GUI I will be satisfied (these are pretty basic shapes). A lot of the static background stuff I’m confident I’ll continue to evolve those using photoshop.

I probably should have researched this but hoping there is a way to import solid works files directly into Zbrush as well. We have a lot of the models already created in that format, it just lacks a decent rendering engine. 1/2 the reason I’m taking this on is that our industrial designer is overloaded with product design so he doesn’t have the time to tackle the software work.

Hey JasonLynn,

Have you thought about downloading and trying out Blender? Its a great free, full featured 3D program. This in combination with ZBrush will definately do the trick!

Good luck!

Hi Jason

In my opinion, the others are right in saying that ZBrush on it’s own is probably not right. Since you have now bought ZBrush, if I were you I would buy a simple modelling program such as Silo (which doesn’t cost much) and do your technical 3D modelling in that. You can then import your .obj file made in Silo into ZBrush to do all your colouring, maybe some extra detailing, your texturing, applying materials and final rendering.
Hope this helps.
Jason H

P.S. Forgot to say that Silo is also really pretty easy to learn - you can probably come to grips with it in a few hours. You can also download a tryout version.

So, I realize maybe I probably shouldn’t have showed the whole application interface as an example of what I’m trying to create. Here’s examples of what I really need to model - still think I’d be better off with blender or Silo?

Hi Jason,
I hope we didn’t sound harsh or discouraging! I have realized that you say that ZBrush is also for your own personal development, so maybe it’s not as simple as a few knobs!! :wink:
A lot of people here will have their own opinions on what would work best for you, and since there is no single answer, all of them will probably have their validity. You can do technical modelling such as those knobs perfectly well in ZB, although ZB is most indicated for organic rather than hard surface modelling. It will take a little effort and learning but if that is part of your purpose then that’s fine. I remain of the opinion that once you do start learning how to do this in ZB, you may well decide that something like Silo would help for this sort of technical stuff. To be honest, as a 2D graphics designer who wants to launch into 3D as a new direction, if I were you I would keep away from Blender, Maya, etc for the moment. These are full blown modelling/animation/rendering programs that are very powerful but take a LOT of learning. You will have your work cut out for the moment with ZB.
My situation is somewhat similar to yours. I am a photographer and 2D graphic designer who does 3D stuff for my own pleasure plus a little bit of possible technical illustration for clients every now and again. I started using ZBrush about 10 months ago. After a few projects I tried something technical (a fan and motor). Although I managed to do this in ZB it encouraged me to buy Silo (as you might have guessed!) for making base models, especially technical hard surface ones. Note that Silo is not a replacement for ZB, it is just a simple modeller. Models can then be imported into other apps such as ZB for further work, colouring, rendering etc. I also have a copy of Carrara, another full blown animation etc app, but this is proving a long term learning curve, hence my comment on Blender, Maya etc.!!
In conclusion, if you are not in a hurry to produce these pieces for your client, but see it as an on-going learning process where you can increasingly do 3D stuff for them (& for yourself), I would see how far you can get with ZB and then make your own decision.
Hope this helps
Jason H

I must respectfully disagree with my peers. ZB excels at hyper realistic 2D page and interface design…I don’t actually think theres anything better for it on the planet, in the hands of a knowledgeable user. As always, ZB works best alongside a traditional modeler, for precise, mechanical shapes…but you can get really far in ZB “2.5D” mode using alphas, stencils and precise brush operations, bypassing most modeling altogether.

For your needs, for the simple types of mechanical objects you need to be precise, and can’t be achieved with an alpha or 2.5 D effect in ZB, I would recommend Wings3d…Blender is way more software than you want for that job, and not nearly as accesible. Wings is also freeware. Silo is great, accessible, and pretty cheap, and I would recommend it as a great pairing with ZB, but it’s not free. It depends on the length of the commitment you require…for a few knobs or minor elements for a single project, use Wings.

Even if you need to go outside ZB to model a precise object, you’ll definitely want to assemble the pieces and render in ZB, as opposed to some bloated animation package, or traditional renderer…here’s why:

  1. If you take your elements into a full blown animation renderer, you must map and texture them, which is a much more complicated process than in ZB, where you can just position your object, slap a couple brush strokes overtop of it, and boom, you’ve got basic material and color, that can be detailed just as painlessly.

  2. Quick Lighting is similarly painless in ZB, and well suited for this type of thing.

  3. Since its going to be a more or less straight on view, you’ll find that creative use of stenciling, alphas, and 2.5D brushes will save you the trouble of modeling any geometry in many instances, with no discernable difference in the end result. Once you know what you’re doing, you can knock out stellar results infinitely faster and with less effort than in some traditional 3D animation-centric bloatware.

I’ve been using ZB for Page(print) design and interface skinning for years now. Here are some quick examples I drudged up. Less than 20% of the elements in these images represent any actual geometry…it’s mostly ZB 2.5D functions and photoshop post processing. More “painting” than modeling. Please forgive the notations…most of these were for client approval.

Of course, for interface skinning, you couldnt do anything as elaborate as the above, because any portion of the interface that has to scale with resolution needs to be bland and homogenous, so it can tile seamlessly. Individual elements that don’t have to scale can benefit from ZB.

Some caveats:

  1. Some types of elements, like those impossibly shiny “web 2.0” buttons are simply better done in photoshop, as they are more “ideal”, than realistic. Some things are always easier done in photoshop.

  2. Everything Ive said here is from the point of view of static imagery. There are no precision operations in ZB for “animating” components. To get mouseover or rotation steps, you would have to reposition the elements manually for each version of it. I think this would be fine for your needs, but I could be mistaken.

  3. Zbrush on the one hand, and 3D modeling in general on the other hand, both carry “not insignificant” learning curves before you’re going to be able to do anything worthwhile. If all you’re after is a few minor elements for a single project, it’s hard to not look at this move as a bit of overkill. I would recommend ZB to any designer, wholeheartedly, to incorporate into their workflow and arsenal of tools… but for a single project, I’ve got to believe you can find some way to get the effects you’re after with photoshop, with which you are already familiar.

Jason,
I should listen to Bingo_Jackson - he knows what he’s talking about. I think actually we’re saying pretty much the same thing, although he adds in the element of 2.5D work about which he’s perfectly right.
Jason H

Lot’s to chew on here. I took a look at both the other apps…silo and wings. Thanks for pointing to those. As far as this project goes, I’ve worked on the evolution of this software for the past 6 years and we still keep upgrading it so I don’t see it going away. I’m also seeing some value in exploring more 3d for the other avenues of my work as well…so even if ZB doesn’t work perfectly for this use I think it’s an effort worth getting in to. Scott, your 2d work is very cool. I still don’t completely understand the framework of ZB but I’m getting the jest of what your saying. Good thing is my application window is a fixed size so I could possibly use ZB for skinning the window without the resizing concerns. I don’t think anything other than a 3d model is going to work for my knobs in the application though. I can’t get the controlled lighting by using photoshop exclusively. I’m really surprised to hear I can’t do a “controlled” rotation of a view in ZB though. There’s not a rotation pallete? Our knobs get rendered out into 48 files with I believe a 2 degree rotation each render. I thought it would be a simple thing to look down straight on a modeled knob and simply add a value to rotate the axis.

There is kind of, in The Transform>Info Pallette, now that you mention it. That would work for your needs, I think, but ZB in general is more “organic” in workflow, and less “numerically precise” than a traditional 3d program.

ZB is really quite difficult to explain, in that theres nothing like it. At its heart, it’s a designer’s/illustrator’s tool, but with a great degree of overlapping functionality in the 3D modeling realm that’s so powerful, people tend to expect it to be a modeler like they’re used to, and not the former.

You would actually have a leg up on a lot of people coming into ZB with a traditional 3d modeling backround, as they come in with certain expectations of what a 3D program should be, that always makes for a system shock. Someone used to working from the standpoint of moving around and manipulating 2D image elements will actually adapt much faster.

If the Movie option wasn’t appropriate it would be straightforward to write a little script to rotate a given amount and then output a render.

IMO, ZBrush is perfect for this sort of thing because of MatCaps and fast rendering. Movie in the zip.

knob01.jpg

Thanks for the demo Marcus. Cool knob.

Sounds like there are definitely ways to make this work. I do see one problem for me though that your demo brought to mind. Some knobs don’t turn on there center…I guess these scripts could be created to rotate at a choosen axis point that doesn’t happen to be centered on the object? Don’t know if I’m making since here but i.e. notice how your knob wobbles off center…that would be problematic.

ZB’s interface is so foreign to me. Add to it that my keyboard strokes are different on the PC. I was trying to follow along with the Practical guide but it’s for 2.0. Is there a 3.0 guide I’m not finding? I went ahead and ordered Meats introductory DVD hoping that’ll be the kickstart I need.

Good times.

Yeah, the wobble’s because I threw it together in a few minutes. It’s not obligatory. :wink:

An object rotates about its pivot point. You can see where this is if you look at the Tool: Preview window - it’s the little red cross. You can change the position by clicking and dragging on the cross and then pressing Store to save the adjustment. Or alternatively you can use the Tool: Deformation: Offset slider for more precise adjustment.

ZBrush 3 Help is being re-written. In the meantime the best resource is the wiki:
http://www.zbrush.info/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Somewhere I’ve got an old script that basically does what you want. If I can dig it out I’ll post it in this thread.

This is going to be meaningless to you right now…as I cautioned, you’ve got a learning curve ahead of you before you can really make sense of it. But there are various ways to do this…in addition to those that Marcus mentioned. Once you understand the transpose controls, you’ll see how you can draw an action line from the center on which you wish to rotate an object, then snap it to incriments which you can specify in the preferences, by holding down shift when you rotate.

Likewise, depending on how well your geometry is constructed, you can hide all but the section of polys that make up the center on which you wish your object to rotate, use the “set pivot point” command. You can then use the “rotation” control in the deformation Tab to rotate the object by the amount you specify numerically, on the pivot point youve specified.

Any high end 3D app is going to take a month or so of solid immersion and active training before you can start getting the most out of it and working in a deliberate fashion. And for someone who, correct me if I’m wrong, doesn’t know his vertexes from his N-gons yet… I’d remove any notion of having my knobs done this weekend :wink:

The Zbrush 2.0 Practical manual, is a collection of tutorials made with the ZB 2 interface. Most of the funtionality is the same, so most of tutorials are still very valid, but things are located in somewhat different places. Make sure to go through the online wiki docs for basics about 3.0 first. Meats DvD is also a great idea…the man knows himself some ZB.

Here’s the zscript. Load it from the ZScript menu Load button. You will need to press ‘H’ on the keyboard to get the buttons to appear at the bottom of the UI.

This will output a series of numbered .psd files for the rotation. You can set the number of files output for a 360 degree turn. Rotating around Y is problematic as it generally introduces gimbal lock, where the model flips. A way around this is by changing the axes of the model using the Tool: Deformation: Rotate slider.

I can say one thing for sure. I can tell already the Zbrush community is full of good people. You guys have gone way beyond my expectations in regards to getting answers.

It’s clear to me not to expect ANY results from ZB over the next SEVERAL weeks. If there was a good time to plunge though now was the time. Our new product cycle always shoots to ship before the holiday season so my mad rush to get things out the door ended about 2 weeks ago. It’s so funny because now it’s the polar opposite I have some scrap work to do but that’s about it. Bossman has given me the thumbs up on all this stuff and even buying the tutor DVDs :+1:

Yesterday, I had our industrial designer try to export out a .dxf file of a knob from one of our guitar amps. No luck. Solidworks is such a lame program. He even had to try a freeware add-on to export .dxf format. The only other format he can do was IGS and that appears to be no good as well. Too bad, if I could import his files I’d be able to focus on rendering for now and eliminate a lot of model work on my end. It would have been cool to render out future prototypes from ZB as well. He hadn’t heard of ZB until I told him and now he wants to see about a license :stuck_out_tongue:

Marcus - thanks for the script!

I just found these, so it appears there is a Z3 practical manual, but its probably a work in progress, and some of the tuts still reference older interfaces.

http://www.zbrush.info/docs/index.php/Downloads

there’s the ‘sweep-profile-3d’ tool in zbrush, would be useful to get the initial shape for those amp dials. it also gives you the option to create ridged/knurled edges quickly.

knowing what you want to use it for (I’m a happy toneport user!), I suspect zbrush would be more useful for you than a traditional 3d package. others have mentioned zbrush’s roots as an illustration tool, which sits well with the existing gearbox look and feel.

there have been a few people over the years that have pushed the ‘airbrushed mechanics’ look, you might find it interesting to see some images, read how they construct them. a lot of these come from v1.x, well before the lumpy monster head brigade pushed zbrush to where it is now… :slight_smile:

ztevie ray waaay back when did lots of this style:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=000387

here’s a few posts explaining his techniques:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?p=82102#post82102
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?p=107663#post107663

good post showing how to make tyre treads quickly, it would easily apply to ridged dials:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=001440

mechanical robot bits, script included (curious if it’ll work in z3!):
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=001965

tricks to fake booleans:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=009776

using simple alpha images to construct 3d shapes (guitars in this example!) get too close and they don’t look good, but would be fine for a gearbox UI:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=010952

and another one:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=21517&page=2&pp=15

this airplane is a good example of something much easier to model in something like silo, but shows you can do more than most people expect in zbrush (there’s a certain macho pride in keeping it all in zbrush too… :slight_smile:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=020370

more crazy detail revolved surfaces:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=5574

for rendering rotating dials, I think it might be easier to render all your elements seperately, then composite them in after effects. you won’t get highlights or reflections properly moving over surfaces as they rotate, but i doubt people will notice much. if it really bothered you then use marcus’ script to render out the rotating dials, and import those to AE. While you could definitely do all your finished work in zbrush, it’d be faster to composite externally.

-matt

ps: new products eh? cmon, spill the beans! an updated variax would be nice… hint hint

I think zbrush is an awsome tool for design, Ui etc…
Like people says, you have to take in consideration the budget and the learning time required…
but you can achieve really great design, depending on your skills, mixing mechanical and organic shapes…

button.jpg

As Seb says its perfectly possible to do hard surfacxe stuff in Zbrush, really it sjust amatter of getting used to the hard surface workflow then its actually pretty easy really. This does take into account that your aready comfortable with the program though.

It takes time to master any applicatin in 3d, and Zbrush is well worth the effort in my view.

Wayne…

Thanks Matt!

Lot’s of helpfull info there for sure. I’ve been going through meats DVD and getting a little frustrating because he hasn’t really covered any hard surface stuff yet…but I’m sure it’s he’ll get to it. Your links will definitely help.

Glad your enjoying TonePort too :+1:

Updated Variax would be cool, I concur.

best,
J